Just how lucky do you need to be?

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Astrid Varelse
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Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:16 pm

So I decided to do some basic math to see which game, between Furoticon and Magic the Gathering is the more luck oriented game...

Long story short, it's more likely you will draw the card you want in Furoticon.

To be exact, assuming you have the most copies of a non-haven, non-basic land card possible in standard format:
• Furoticon: 3/40 = 7.5%
'• Magic the Gathering: 4/60 = 6.666%

Now obviously that's not getting into drawing a good hand, or haven ratio... But I don't have enough cards for that yet... Hopefully within the coming month or so.
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Taz
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Re: Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by Taz » Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Put simply it means that the recommended numbers of a given card per-deck change somewhat. Any card that's a lynchpin of your deck you're obviously going to want the full three copies, but for anything you only need to see once, a mere two would suffice (much as in Magic such a card would be a 3-of, or 1/20 in a full deck). Furthermore the math is less simple than that, as each card you draw increases the likelihood of drawing anything that's not that card--the odds of having at least one of a crucial 3-of in your opening hand is the inverse of not drawing it in your opening hand, or

1 - (37/40)(36/39)(35/38)(34/37)(33/36)(32/35)

. . . for your standard 6-card opening hand Owner. Incidentally this works out to slightly less than 40%, but this is where the brilliance of Furoticon's mulligan system comes in. If you really want certain cards, you can mulligan your hand to the bottom of your deck, where they won't influence the rest of the randomized pile. This effectively adds

(slightly more than .6)(1 - [31/34][30/33][29/32][28/31][27/30])

. . . or slightly more than 23% to your chances with a default Owner. That's roughly 63% chance to get any given card you may need right from the get-go--the trick, of course, is knowing what you really want and when it's appropriate to mulligan for it.

Of course, another brilliant system also helps players get the cards they need without making combo decks too easy to pull off: the dual resource system. Any gender can have card advantage if you have the proper AP support in your deck--drawing more than one card in a turn (thus making it more likely to get the cards you want early on) is not an uncommon occurrence in Furoticon. This being said, you still need to find the appropriate GP to play the non-Haven cards you want--you can [card]Spread and Begging[/card] for [card]Swapping Spree[/card] all you want, but a whole lot of good that's going to do you if you don't have the means of playing it first!
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Re: Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by JavelinChimera » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:01 pm

One of the reasons I enjoy this game is because steps were taken to try and avoid the glaring design flaws that Magic still incorporates (the 2 big sins, card-based resource system and system mechanic of 1 card drawn per turn). Yes, we still have a resource system that relies on drawing specific cards (bad game, bad!), BUT we have a separate resource that is automatically generated and facilitates a given draw mechanic, allowing you to see more cards per turn even if you have an otherwise dead hand (more than 1 card draw per turn?? Good game! Good boy!). This SIGNIFICANTLY decreases the amount of games where you find yourself automatically losing/doing nothing at all no matter how well your deck is designed.

I've always felt that The Spoils was a much more apt comparison to Furoticon as far as more mainstream games go. And that's definitely a good thing. ;)

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Re: Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by polkakitty » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:56 pm

JavelinChimera wrote:I've always felt that The Spoils was a much more apt comparison to Furoticon as far as more mainstream games go. And that's definitely a good thing. ;)
I think it's kind of inevitable that people will compare Furoticon to Magic, simply because more people have played Magic than any other collectible card game. I actually almost wish there was a page on the site called something like "startup guide for Magic players" to explain the ways that Furoticon doesn't work the same way Magic does (the biggest sticking point usually seems to be that each Furre can pleasure more than one Furre in bed, but that can only happen if both sides have more than one Furre in bed, which means it probably won't happen the first time.) They would definitely get sued if they had something like that up on the site, though.

For a long time now, I've actually thought that comparing Furoticon's resource system to an RTS game works better than comparing it to Magic. You need GP sources to play higher-level cards, and you need at least 1 GP source to play any Furres at all, but AP is actually what will usually be the limiting factor on what you can do each turn, and you start with a steady source of it. So in effect, AP is your mineral production, and GP sources (which are one of the things you can spend AP on) are the structures that allow you to upgrade your units and build higher-level units. Something that really threw me when I first started playing is that, if you're not playing a Male deck with cards like [card]Purple Vibrator[/card] and [card]Viagrate[/card], you won't be able to spend all your GP every turn, and that actually isn't as much of a handicap as it sounds like, because AP is the limiting factor, and the purpose of GP is mostly to expand the selection of cards you can play. And in Magic, you really need to be able to play a land on each of the first several turns for your deck to perform optimally, and you'll probably want some kind of acceleration on top of that, whereas in Furoticon, if you end up with 2 Home Havens when your opponent has 4, I think it's a lot easier to make a comeback because you don't have to get GP sources out at the same pace, and you're not locked out of playing any good Furres.

For what it's worth, out of all the card games I've ever played, I think Scrolls actually has by far the best resource system. Basically, there are 4 resources (or "colors", if you want to think about it that way,) Growth, Order, Energy, and Decay, and each card costs between 1 and 8 of one of them. You'll be getting a certain amount of each resource per turn, but there isn't any "land" type of cards that you play to generate more resources. Instead, you draw a card at the beginning of your turn, and once per turn, you can sacrifice a card in order to either draw two more cards, or increase the amount of any resource you generate per turn by 1 (and you get to spend the extra resource on your current turn.) A savvy player will quickly realize that, one way or the other, you should always sacrifice a card every turn. The only possible situation in which you wouldn't want to do so is if you absolutely had to play one specific card to avoid dying, and that card also just happened to be the only one in your hand.

For the first 4 or 5 turns, you'll pretty much expect to sacrifice for resources every turn (for whatever weird reason, most of the best cards in the game have a cost of 5 or 6, so it's imperative to raise your resource production to 5 as quickly as possible.) By that point you'll be generating enough resources that, more and more often, you'll be able to afford to play 2 cards per turn, so you'll want to start sacrificing for extra cards instead of sacrificing for resources, unless you need the extra resource to play the combination of cards you want. This also gives you something to do with any cards that aren't particularly useful at the moment, since you can trade them for potentially more appropriate cards.

But the beautiful thing about it is that there's essentially a maximum amount of resources you'll ever need to sacrifice for, since each turn you'll be getting 2 new cards (plus whatever you get from card effects that let you draw extra cards,) and you'll eventually reach a point where you're always generating enough resources to play all of them (most decks seem to reach this point at around 10 of their main resource,) so by then you just sacrifice for cards every turn, and there are never any dead draws. If I was designing a card game, I seriously would steal the hell out of this system.

The problem with Scrolls was that there were a few cards that were so much better than everything else that you couldn't get away with not using them, and you'd only be offered a few randomly selected cards every few days that you could buy with real money. Everything else you had to buy using the in-game currency that you got from playing games, which meant you had to spend a ridiculous amount of time on it in order to collect all the cards (which was the reason I quit.) I'm not sure whether this is still the case, but when I was playing, it was basically impossible to make a decent Order deck without having 3 each of Honorable General, Speed, Waking Stones, Pother, and probably Blessing of Haste, most of which were rare, and because of the high demand for them, required massive amounts of in-game gold to trade for. I also felt it was disappointing that all the cards were illustrated by the same person, although his art at least isn't horrendously ugly like the guy who drew all the cards for Ascension.

The main problem I see with Furoticon's resource system is that, unless you're making heavy use of cards like [card]Mesa[/card] and [card]Guiding Jinvon[/card], you'll generally need between 5 and 9 sources of each GP you're using (depending on how heavily you're using that gender) in order to establish yourself consistently, but that means that in the late game, when you've got enough GP sources to play all of your cards, you've still got a lot of extra Home Havens in your deck that just become dead draws. I actually wish there were more cards like [card]Skeleton Key[/card] that require you to discard a card to play them, or even cards like [card]Dean's Assistant[/card] with a skill that eliminates a Home Haven as part of its cost. I think mechanics like that could be thought of as a sort of soft GP cost: it's possible to play them in the early game, but losing a card or Home Haven hurts you a lot more then, and as the game goes on, it becomes easier to spare those resources, and sacrificing them to something like Dean's Assistant's skill might even become the best use for them.

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Re: Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by Kaycat » Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:29 pm

Interestingly, the sacrifice-type system that Scrolls uses exists in several other games. The key factor there is that any card can be used as a resource, and so you don't have to worry about dead draws later when you have all the resources you need. Other games that did that off the top of my head are Duel Master/Kaijudo, Shadow Era, and I think also the WoW card game, although I may be wrong about that one.

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Re: Just how lucky do you need to be?

Post by Marchandique » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:09 am

One of my most favourite card games with interesting mechanics is Gundam NEX-A.
In this card game, your deck is actually your life so each time you draw a card or draw multiple cards you lose life. But also when you take direct damage, you will lose cards you could've drawn from your deck. So in this game, it's actually the best option to draw additional cards from your 'discard pile' or from your 'hangar'. The latter is like a second hand of cards, but they're kept open for your opponent, which you can increase through the usage of other cards.
Every card in your deck can be used as a resource to make your army stronger, so there are no useless cards. Some cards even have effects that can be used after being turned into a resource, like shielding you from direct damage.
A deck consists of 50 cards, but remember that it's also your life. You can run out of cards really quick if you don't pay attention.
One of the most interesting things of these mechanics is the ending of each match I've been in. It always ended with both players only needing 1 turn to finish off the opponent, so whoever got the last turn won.

But I honestly have no idea how lucky you'd need to be to draw a specific card. Considering you could just lose cards from getting damaged, but that risk is minimized if you have methods of taking cards from the discard pile. Or if you have mechanics to put specific cards into your hangar. Or if you have methods of regaining life and therefore regaining cards. Maybe you will risk everything and draw multiple cards for a quick fast attacks. Maybe you use cards with the Switch effect, which allow you to draw stronger versions of that card from your deck. But whichever card you draw, at whatever point in the game, it can always be used as a resource. There are multiple colors amongst the cards, so you would need specific colors to play specific cards. But I've never experienced that as an issue.

The card game has a lot more interesting mechanics which make me love it, not to forget that it's GUNDAM which I already love a lot.

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