Male Herms & Transwomen?

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Astrid Varelse
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Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:58 pm

I can't find any herm furre cards which are more gender defined as male. Also, I don't think I've seen any transwomen.

Why? Now maybe I'm just the odd one out because I'd like to see that sort of thing, however from an art direction, I suppose a male herm could be mistaken for regular males visually, and a transwomen could be mistaken for a herm.

As it stands gender distinguishment is quite simple:

Code: Select all

if FurreHasBoobs then           /
    if FurreHasPenis then       /
        FurreIsHerm()           / (Boobs and penis)
    else                        /
        FurreIsFemale()         / (Just boobs)
    end                         /
elseif FurreHasPenis then       /
    FurreIsMale()               / (Just penis)
else                            /
    FurreIsOtherkind()          / (Neither boobs, nor penis)
end
Pardon that terribly written lua script :fist:

Or maybe you just don't receive that kind of art often, if at all :(

Edit: It's being oblivious wonderful? My apologies, the post has been updated.
Last edited by Astrid Varelse on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Seppel
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Re: Male Hermaphrodites? Shemales?

Post by Seppel » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:37 pm

BlackDragonIV wrote:I can't find any herm furre cards which are more gender defined as male. Also, I don't think I've seen any shemales.

Why? Now maybe I'm just the odd one out because I'd like to see that sort of thing, however from an art direction, I suppose a male hermaphrodite could be mistaken for regular males visually, and a shemale could be mistaken for a hermaphrodite.

As it stands gender distinguishment is quite simple:

Code: Select all

if FurreHasBoobs then           /
    if FurreHasPenis then       /
        FurreIsHermaphrodite()  / (Boobs and penis)
    else                        /
        FurreIsFemale()         / (Just boobs)
    end                         /
elseif FurreHasPenis then       /
    FurreIsMale()               / (Just penis)
else                            /
    FurreIsOtherkind()          / (Neither boobs, nor penis)
end
Pardon that terribly written lua script :fist:

Or maybe you just don't receive that kind of art often, if at all :(
Hi! :)

Just a few notes:

[card]Head Guard Val Dura[/card] is probably our most masculine Herm (please use "Herm" instead of "Hermaphrodite" because "Hermaphrodite" is considered a slur to intersex people, and "Herm" is our compromise for our fantasy gender/sex.)

"S**male" is an inappropriate term for a transwoman. (S**male implies work in the sex trade.) Please use transwoman instead. :)

A whole bunch of answers are available here: http://furoticon.com/index.php?a=872 :D
:tanrare: Seppel

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Astrid Varelse
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Thank you for the reference, I've updated the thread to be more sensitive regarding the choice of pronouns.

But my question still remains, why haven't many masculine herms and transwomen made it into Furoticon?
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Seppel
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Seppel » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:08 pm

No worries; we will include them more!
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Astrid Varelse
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:41 pm

I almost think you quoted my OP to forever shame me XD

Regardless it's great to hear that more transgender representation is on its way ^_^
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by polkakitty » Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:25 pm

Notably, [card]Chessie[/card] is a transwoman, and there are several great pieces of art featuring her in Caramel.

Also, Otherkind is more "doesn't identify as primarily male, female, or herm" than "has neither boobs nor a penis" (which isn't true of most of the Otherkind characters in the game in any case.)

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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:17 pm

Your right.

Looking around at Otherkind more I see what you mean. Cards such as [c]Cadence[/c], who would seem to be female, remains otherkind.

This is where the games gender identification starts to get somewhat confusing...

For example, because transwomen can identify themselves as male, or otherkind (Or female?), when you talk about how much pleasure a furre would give to [c]Chessie[/c], it's debatable that male PE should be relevant as generally speaking, pleasure in furoticon is sex, and your sex organs play a large role in how you can receive pleasure.

I know it's rude to imply that all transgender furres should be required to be classified based on their anatomy in furoticon, however it's the simplest way to understand the logic of PEs. The only reason to force genders to be a representation of reproductive anatomy is really just for artistic clarity. Which I think Seppel would agree, is not a good enough reason.

I'm assuming that everyone working on Furoticon has already both considered, and decided that gender is no more than a mechanic, and that furres may identify as they please, within reason.

PS: keep in mind this is a discussion! I'm not suggesting that changes should be made!

PPS: This post has been edited several times...
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Astrid Varelse
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:00 am

I think my biggest caveat with the gender identification options for transgender furres, is that it can make it very difficult to build a theme deck with a particular type of transgender. As you will be forced into 2 or even 3 Gender types, even though with artistic clarity (If they were identified by anatomy), a transwomen deck, would simply be of male gender.
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Taz » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:16 am

BlackDragonIV wrote:For example, because transwomen can identify themselves as male, or otherkind (Or female?), when you talk about how much pleasure a furre would give to [c]Chessie[/c], it's debatable that male PE should be relevant as generally speaking, pleasure in furoticon is sex, and your sex organs play a large role in how you can receive pleasure.
Please do not sex a transwoman the way you would sex a man. It will only end in tears.

Chessie considers herself more feminine genderqueer, anyway.
BlackDragonIV wrote:I think my biggest caveat with the gender identification options for transgender furres, is that it can make it very difficult to build a theme deck with a particular type of transgender. As you will be forced into 2 or even 3 Gender types, even though with artistic clarity (If they were identified by anatomy), a transwomen deck, would simply be of male gender.
You mean female. Furoticon actually has a transwoman character already with Lyscilla. Previously printed as a Herm because she possessed both sex characteristics, she still nonetheless considers herself to be completely female, and printings of her going forward will reflect that (though, she'll likely lose the Furre-steal effect in favor of something more fitting for a Female Furre mechanically, not to mention something more fitting for her current position in the Di'Ahla storyline).
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Astrid Varelse
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:47 am

Taz wrote:You mean female.
For arguments sake, I'm looking at gender and sexual capability VERY superficially here.

So when I look at a transwomen (Sorry for anyone who's been offended throughout this topic, the pronouns you choose to use are your decisions and I do truly respect how you wish to be identified) I am looking at sexual capabilities superficially.

[c]Chessie[/c] has a penis, an anus (I presume... I'd have to find more art), and boobs. I feel that makes hir (?), anatomically (In the reproductive area), more comparable to a male [arguably a herm] for PE's sake.
Taz wrote:Please do not sex a transwoman the way you would sex a man. It will only end in tears.
As I mentioned above, my view in regards to gender is very superficial here, and that's because I don't know about the sexual capabilites that transgender individuals experience. So please if you have a resource which explains why a transwomen should be more comparable to a female in terms of sexual capabilities that would be awesome!

Regardless however, the result remains the same. The gender makeup of the deck would be significantly simplified while maintaining the chosen transgender.
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by polkakitty » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:25 am

Honestly, I think the way PEs are set up is just a necessary bit of abstraction in order to keep the complexity of calculating pleasure down to a manageable level. I mean, speaking purely in terms of physical actions, would, say, the relationship between Sebastian (a cis man) and Caramel (a transman who has not gone through sex reassignment surgery) be different from a cis male couple's relationship? No doubt it would, but then, not all cis male couples have the same preferences in terms of sexual actions either. They aren't all into anal sex, they don't always have one much more femme partner and one much more butch partner, they don't all find very muscular figures attractive, and so on.

The fact is, sexual acts and preferences in real life are far more complex and varied than either "what gender are you" or "what equipment do you have," and it can only get more complicated when you factor in the fantasy creatures that are found within Otherkind, which have options like transforming into different forms, swallowing you whole (holy crap I love that card, and I'm not even really into vore,) and of course, all the tentacles. But from a game design perspective, you want it to be easy for players to understand what the result of any given move will be, and you don't want to have too many abilities in your game that do essentially the same thing, which means that trying to do anything like giving Furres a separate aptitude for every possible sex act, while it might be "realistic" in some sense, would be completely unworkable. What you need to do is to group methods of giving pleasure into a manageable number of categories, like how so many RPGs separate damage into categories like fire, lightning, and ice, or slashing, piercing, and crushing.

And since we're already classifying the Furres themselves by what gender they identify as for the purposes of deckbuilding and resource management, from a game design perspective, it's much easier to figure out how much pleasure each Furre deals to other Furres if pleasure is determined on the basis of the same categories, rather than also having to keep track of orthogonal categories for the Furres' physical attributes, which most of the time but not always correlate a certain way with their self-identified gender. And anyway, even when it comes to real life sex, regardless of what you and your lover have got between your legs, there are always enough possibilities open to you that love will find a way, as it were.

In summary, card games can't be completely realistic and still have comprehensible rules, and sometimes you just need to repeat to yourself "it's just a game, I should really just relax."

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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Astrid Varelse » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:48 am

polkakitty wrote:And since we're already classifying the Furres themselves by what gender they identify as for the purposes of deckbuilding and resource management, from a game design perspective, it's much easier to figure out how much pleasure each Furre deals to other Furres if pleasure is determined on the basis of the same categories
Definitely! I totally agree, and this topic has sparked a pretty off-topic discussion!

This part of the disucssion (what-if each transgender was related to a specific game gender), is really a very large "It would be really convenient for theme decks if..." Like I mentioned previously,
BlackDragonIV wrote:I'm not suggesting that changes should be made!
However this topic is really about "Let's try and make sure there is a healthy balance of non-transgender and the various types of transgender furres!" And to be quite honest it stemmed mostly from a lack of research on my end because when I tried to look for transgender furres they were hard to sort for. Although it did bring to light things such as the lack of masculine herms which is great because it means we might get more diversity!
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Re: Male Herms & Transwomen?

Post by Draj » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:41 pm

It was pointed out to me at FC, that Caramel (boytoy's boyfriend) is actually a FtM Transgender.
http://furoticon.com/index.php?a=874
You can see his slit below his strap on.

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