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Jwalk
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The Stack

Post by Jwalk » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:06 pm

Do abilities and effects stack and resolve in the same way that they do in Magic the Gathering, first in last out? My question comes from this scenario.
1. I play [card]Belly of the Beast[/card] and it resolves.
2. Belly of the Beast's ability triggers and I select an opposing furre to be dismissed.
3. With that ability on the stack I use [card]Cold Shower[/card] targeting Belly of the Beast.
4. When Cold Shower resolves Belly of the Beast is eliminated, triggering it's second ability which goes onto the stack.
5. Belly of the Beast's second ability resolves and is nullified since it's first ability hasn't resolved yet.
6. Belly of the Beast's first ability resolves dismissing the selected furre leaving it unable to return.

This type play works in Magic the Gathering but I am unsure of it would work in Furoticon. Would the same effect work for [card]Booty Box[/card]?

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Astrid Varelse
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Re: The Stack

Post by Astrid Varelse » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:58 pm

Jwalk wrote:3. With that ability on the stack I use [card]Cold Shower[/card] targeting Belly of the Beast.
In this case, I believe Belly of the Beast's coming into play effect is not a triggered or activated skill, therefore it cannot be reacted to

"Players may react only to: Main step moves, triggered skills (that trigger during the Main step or Bed step), activated skills, and bed steps." Source
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Re: The Stack

Post by Tegome » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:58 am

Belly of the Beast's skill -is- a triggered skill. It's triggered by entering and leaving the scene. (Triggered skills usually start with 'When' or 'At'.)

I've read it over a couple of times, and it looks like Jwalk has the right idea. Furoticon uses the FILO stack to determine order of skills.

Having said that, I'm not so sure how well that'd work with Booty Box -- I don't believe a Furre can eat something while it's on the couch (which is what you're proposing with, say, two Surprise Thrusts on a Booty Box whose Enter the Scene skill has yet to resolve). I'm not seeing anything to support that, though...
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Astrid Varelse
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Re: The Stack

Post by Astrid Varelse » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:46 pm

I don't think Belly of the Beast is actually in play until after it's first effect resolves, preventing it from being targeted by Cold Shower
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Re: The Stack

Post by Tegome » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:22 pm

Nah, its Enters the Scene skill doesn't trigger until it enters the scene. The step-by-step goes something like this:

- Player A pays the cost and declares that they're going to play Belly of the Beast.
- Players may react. (Player B could play [c]I'm a Lesbian[/c] to prevent Belly from ever entering the scene.)
- With no other reaction, Belly resolves. Belly enters the scene. Belly's Enter the Scene skill is triggered.
- Players may react. (Player A uses Cold Shower, targeting the Belly that's in the scene, and all sorts of shenanigans ensue.)

Note that there's no chance to react between Belly entering the scene and Belly's Enter the Scene skill being triggered. If a player doesn't want the skill to happen, they must use Denial.
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Re: The Stack

Post by Taz » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:05 pm

. . . now I'm sitting here wondering how nobody (myself included) in development caught that, because that is a very well-known trick in MTG.

Regarding Booty Box, at least (because it does not need to be any better), I am 95+% certain that the eating trigger receives a state-based denial if Booty Box is not actually in the scene to do the eating.
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Re: The Stack

Post by Kaycat » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:24 pm

For the record, this is a problem that Magic the Gathering ran into. A card called Oblivion Ring works this way and they just fairly recently they fixed their card writing guide so that effects don't cause this to happen anymore. You are correct about Booty Box, though. It can't eat something if it isn't in the scene, so this trick doesn't work with it. At least that would be my guess.

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Re: The Stack

Post by Seppel » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:43 pm

It works just as Jwaik posted.

But, there's good news -- you'll have to go triple-gender for this to work at all. Otherkind doesn't get Treat removal, and Female only gets Treat removal at Action speed (that is to say, there's no Female Surprise cards that eliminate Treats).
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Re: The Stack

Post by Drex » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:53 am

Huh, I would have figured that eliminating the treat would nullify the comes in to play effect since the treat is no longer in play. I know the ability is in the stack, but there are plenty of examples where I would think this wouldn't work. Such as, Sweet Sue uses her ability on some fur of mine, I react with Thrust on Sweet Sue. Thrust goes first and orgasms Sweet Sue. Are you saying that Sweet Sue's ability will still resolve even though she's no longer in play?
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Re: The Stack

Post by Tegome » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:55 am

Once a skill is on the stack, removing its source does not remove the skill. Furres with 'when this furre orgasms' skills simply wouldn't work otherwise.
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Re: The Stack

Post by Astrid Varelse » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:55 am

Drex wrote:Huh, I would have figured that eliminating the treat would nullify the comes in to play effect since the treat is no longer in play. I know the ability is in the stack, but there are plenty of examples where I would think this wouldn't work. Such as, Sweet Sue uses her ability on some fur of mine, I react with Thrust on Sweet Sue. Thrust goes first and orgasms Sweet Sue. Are you saying that Sweet Sue's ability will still resolve even though she's no longer in play?
That's actually a really really good point -- but let me explain! In Magic the Gathering for instance, if I have a 'timmy' (See the tap effect of Prodigal Pyromancer), and I tap him to use his effect to deal one damage to a player. You can respond with Lightning Bolt to kill him. This prevents the damage Prodigal Pyromancer would have done because his skill says "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player".

So on the stack, the lightning bolt goes off, killing the Prodigal Pyromancer, then when Prodigal Pyromancer's ability resolve it fails/fizzles because he deals the damage, and is no-longer in play, he cannot deal damage.

If his effect was " :ex:: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player." -- You'll notice in Magic the Gathering, 99% of cards will say "[Card Name] deals x damage" -- hell even the Lightning Bolt says it!
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Re: The Stack

Post by Astrid Varelse » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:36 am

In reference to my previous post here-- I've implied that Bandjar and Meilianhari is broken... Hard to say though because I can't find the keyword "Orgasm" in the Wiki.
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Re: The Stack

Post by polkakitty » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:32 pm

BlackDragonIV wrote:You'll notice in Magic the Gathering, 99% of cards will say "[Card Name] deals x damage" -- hell even the Lightning Bolt says it!
That's actually a really good point. I always thought that was just to clarify how that kind of damage interacts with the "prevent damage from red sources" kind of card effects.
BlackDragonIV wrote:In reference to my previous post here-- I've implied that Bandjar and Meilianhari is broken...
No, actually, it isn't, because of this rule that's different from how Magic works:
wiki.furoticon.com wrote:If a stamina value, PE value, or state is needed about an object that has left the scene before the turn is over (for example, to check if a Furre had a -5 Max Stamina counter), use the last value that object had before it left the scene. If the object left the scene more than a turn ago, use 0.
Bandjar and Meilianhari's skill still needs to check their PEs to see how much pleasure to deal, but it can use the PEs they had at the time they left the scene.
BlackDragonIV wrote:Hard to say though because I can't find the keyword "Orgasm" in the Wiki.
It's in the terms section ("keyword" here is a keyword^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hterm of art that only refers to abbreviations for skills found on cards.) The distinction that I suppose is relevant here is that "Orgasm" is specifically defined as having a Furre's :sp: go down to 0 and removing it from the scene for that reason. "Climax" is a different thing since it just removes the Furre from the scene regardless of its current :sp: and it isn't considered to have lost any :sp:, so if Bandjar and Meilianhari are climaxed by e. g. [card]Sign of the Solet[/card], it doesn't count as orgasm, and neither their Multi-orgasmic nor their "pleasure target Furre" skill will go off. (I suppose this is also why there are cards that say "climax a Furre" but none that say "orgasm a Furre", since that would be meaningless. If the Furre it affected wasn't at 0 :sp:, orgasming that Furre without lowering its :sp: is impossible, and if that Furre was already at 0 :sp:, it would have already orgasmed when the Eternal Rules were checked.)
Taz wrote:Regarding Booty Box, at least (because it does not need to be any better), I am 95+% certain that the eating trigger receives a state-based denial if Booty Box is not actually in the scene to do the eating.
The way I'd interpret the rules for Glutton (since there isn't a separate entry for "belly" in the wiki) is that only objects in the scene can have a belly, so I think this is correct. If Booty Box tries to eat a Furre when it isn't in the scene, it won't do anything since Booty Box doesn't have a belly zone anymore.

....Someone should totally be submitting some of this stuff to TheStrangeLog.

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Re: The Stack

Post by Drex » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:11 pm

BlackDragonIV wrote:
Drex wrote:Huh, I would have figured that eliminating the treat would nullify the comes in to play effect since the treat is no longer in play. I know the ability is in the stack, but there are plenty of examples where I would think this wouldn't work. Such as, Sweet Sue uses her ability on some fur of mine, I react with Thrust on Sweet Sue. Thrust goes first and orgasms Sweet Sue. Are you saying that Sweet Sue's ability will still resolve even though she's no longer in play?
That's actually a really really good point -- but let me explain! In Magic the Gathering for instance, if I have a 'timmy' (See the tap effect of Prodigal Pyromancer), and I tap him to use his effect to deal one damage to a player. You can respond with Lightning Bolt to kill him. This prevents the damage Prodigal Pyromancer would have done because his skill says "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player".

So on the stack, the lightning bolt goes off, killing the Prodigal Pyromancer, then when Prodigal Pyromancer's ability resolve it fails/fizzles because he deals the damage, and is no-longer in play, he cannot deal damage.

If his effect was " :ex:: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player." -- You'll notice in Magic the Gathering, 99% of cards will say "[Card Name] deals x damage" -- hell even the Lightning Bolt says it!
Ah, that's a good point. This explains why I could have sworn this worked in Magic, but I guess it doesn't in Furo. Interesting.
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