Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

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Asapfgd
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Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Asapfgd » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:25 pm

Hi, I just learned about this game at AC and picked up a few decks. Im have a few probablly basic questions plus a hard one, hard first. Hard First.

-One of the fur cards is named "Onbey" and the text says
"Onbey has all Kinks of all Furres in the scene.

While another Furre in the scene is a Renegade, Onbey is a Renegade. The same is true for Feisty, Meddler, Multi-orgasmic,Relaxed,Shy, Tantric, and Tireless.
"

I have two questions about this card:
1. Can kinks other then the ones listed be added to Onbey.

2. If yes to 1 then does Onbey have the kinks even before she is played? I ask because some kinks like Kink - Relaxed Furres (one less AP to play for every relaxed furre in the scene) are only relevent before/as Onbey is being played.


onto the easy question:

It seems like some treats have nothing to do with any specific furs, more just general modifiers, should these cards still be associated with furres?

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Taz
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Taz » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:13 pm

"Kink" is not the same as "keyworded skill." It is merely one example of a keyworded skill--specifically, all a Kink skill will ever do is reduce AP costs according to a certain condition. Onbey will have all the Kinks on Furres in the scene when you play them, and the AP you would pay to play Onbey should thus be adjusted accordingly.

Likewise, the only other keyworded skills Onbey will copy from Furres in the scene are the ones listed on the card. If [card]Grizzwald the Hedonist[/card] is in the scene, Onbey will not be Extra Generous (but [card]Chessie[/card] will).

Perhaps the more interesting question regarding Onbey is whether a second Onbey will have all the Kinks on the first Onbey twice. Personally, I think so, and that could make for a potentially powerful play if you have the GP to back it up.

Regarding Treats, you can usually disregard the art on them entirely. Play them only according to the rules text explicitly given.
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by polkakitty » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:22 pm

Asapfgd wrote:It seems like some treats have nothing to do with any specific furs, more just general modifiers, should these cards still be associated with furres?
Do you mean Treats that don't say "Alter a Furre" on them? Some Treat cards will just say "Treat" on the line below their name. Those cards will not be attached to a Furre when you play them, and they can be played even if no player has any Furres in the scene (i. e. currently in play.) Generally, they will either give you a constant passive bonus (e. g. [card]Swapping Spree[/card] increases all your Furres' PEs by 3 as long as it remains in the scene) or have an activated skill that you can use at any time by paying its cost ([card]Tropical Tryst[/card] lets you exhaust it and spend 1 AP to deal 1 pleasure to a player.)

However, some treats will say "Treat - Alteration" below their name. These are a special subtype of Treats, and their skill text will always say "Alter [something]" (usually a Furre, but Alterations that alter Havens and players exist.) When you play an Alteration, you must attach it to an object of the type it says that's already in the scene, and it will alter that object's properties in some way (not necessarily a good way; [card]Strip Bare[/card] is an Alteration you can play on an opponent's Furre to make it lose all of its skills.) If the object an Alteration is attached to ever leaves the scene for any reason, the Alteration also leaves the scene and goes to your couch (discard pile.) (Even Multi-orgasmic Furres, when they leave and reenter the scene, lose any Alterations they had on them.)
Taz wrote:Perhaps the more interesting question regarding Onbey is whether a second Onbey will have all the Kinks on the first Onbey twice. Personally, I think so, and that could make for a potentially powerful play if you have the GP to back it up.
I think it would have to (and the wiki does say that multiple Kink skills stack,) but then we get the question of whether two Onbeys can copy an infinite number of Kinks from each other, and automatically reduce the AP cost of another Onbey to 0 as long as the condition for any Kink is met at least once. More worryingly, the same issue could be raised for Renegade, Relaxed, Tantric, and Feisty(!!), as well as two Chessies copying Dominant, Submissive, and Tantric from each other. (EDIT: no, Onbey can only get multiple copies of Kinks and Chessie can't get multiple copies of anything, see below)

Way back in 1st Vanilla, [card]Junkyard Rottweiler[/card]'s skill had a clause that said "other Furres cannot gain this skill" to prevent this problem, and I think that was a pretty reasonable solution. Maybe there should just be a general policy that says something like "if Alice copies a skill from Bob, Carol can copy the same skill from Bob, but not from Alice" (except using different terminology, because "Copy" is already being used as a keyword that does something else.)
Last edited by polkakitty on Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Astrid Varelse » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:32 pm

To try and keep things simple.

Hard:
1) Onbey has all kinks from Furres in the scene. (It has nothing to do with the listed keywords)
2) Onbey has the listed skills in addition to the kinks if the conditions are met. (This is what the list refers to. So for example Onbey cannot gain "Undeniable", or any other skill not listed)

To help explain.
• If a furre in the scene has "Kink - Tireless", Onbey will gain that kink. (Reducing Onbeys' cost by :1: for each "Kink- Tireless" Furre in the scene)
• If a furre is just "Tireless", Onbey will gain the skill "Tireless". (Meaning that swinging would not exhaust Onbey)
You'll know if something in a Kink because the skill is "Kink - [Fact]"

Easy:
Treats are simply cards which remain in play until stated otherwise. If they are an "Alteration". (You can see this in the upper right) they need to be attached to an object ("Alter an [object]."). If the object they are attached to leaves the scene, they go to the couch (Unless otherwise stated.)

They can be things such as "Alter a Furre. Altered Furre has +5 to Max :sp:.", or things such as "During your refill step, you gain :sp: equal to the number of Horse Furres you control."
If it doesn't say "Alteration" in the upper right, then it simply means you do not attach it to anything. It floats around in the scene giving you its skills.
Note: These aren't real cards, atleast that I can remember, just examples
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Astrid Varelse » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:35 pm

Firstly, I do believe Onbey will get multiple instances of Kinks. And that 2 Onbeys in the scene should instantly loop their costs to 0 if a Furre with a valid Kink in the scene.
polkakitty wrote:I think it would have to (and the wiki does say that multiple Kink skills stack,) but then we get the question of whether two Onbeys can copy an infinite number of Kinks from each other, and automatically reduce the AP cost of another Onbey to 0 as long as the condition for any Kink is met at least once. More worryingly, the same issue could be raised for Renegade, Relaxed, Tantric, and Feisty(!!), as well as two Chessies copying Dominant, Submissive, and Tantric from each other.

This isn't a concern because Onbey says "While another Furre in the scene is". This means if 2 Furres were to be Shy 2 times each, Onbey would only become Shy 1. -- This applies for all skills... This means that 2 Onbeys would not feed off each other in that sense...

HOWEVER. If you have 2 Onbeys in the scene, and the source Furre leaves the scene, do the 2 Onbeys use each other as the source for the skills? (IE, All Shy Furres leaves the scene, but Onbey A continues to gain Shy from Onbey B, and Onbey B continues to gain Shy from Onbey A)
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by polkakitty » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:07 am

BlackDragonIV wrote:
polkakitty wrote:I think it would have to (and the wiki does say that multiple Kink skills stack,) but then we get the question of whether two Onbeys can copy an infinite number of Kinks from each other, and automatically reduce the AP cost of another Onbey to 0 as long as the condition for any Kink is met at least once. More worryingly, the same issue could be raised for Renegade, Relaxed, Tantric, and Feisty(!!), as well as two Chessies copying Dominant, Submissive, and Tantric from each other.

This isn't a concern because Onbey says "While another Furre in the scene is". This means if 2 Furres were to be Shy 2 times each, Onbey would only become Shy 1. -- This applies for all skills... This means that 2 Onbeys would not feed off each other in that sense...
Looking again at the wording of Onbey's skill, this is correct. Both Onbey's second skill and Chessie's skill are written in such a way that they can't gain more than one copy of any of the listed skills. Sorry about that, I was definitely wrong about that one.

The infinite loop of Kinks still really worries me, though, because it seems like something that could completely break the game if other cards interact with it, or when trying to implement Onbey in Furoticon Online. I mean, the way I'm reading it, [card]Self-Study Session[/card] could deal an infinite amount of pleasure to two Onbeys copying Kinks from each other. Imagine if there was a card like [card]Facial Battalion[/card], only it dealt pleasure in proportion to the number of skills a Furre had instead of its PEs....
BlackDragonIV wrote:HOWEVER. If you have 2 Onbeys in the scene, and the source Furre leaves the scene, do the 2 Onbeys use each other as the source for the skills? (IE, All Shy Furres leaves the scene, but Onbey A continues to gain Shy from Onbey B, and Onbey B continues to gain Shy from Onbey A)
I think this question ultimately comes down to: is the Shy Furre that's leaving the scene the only source for the Onbeys to get Shy from? Suppose you have 2 Onbeys and 1 Hadi (a Furre with Shy as his only skill,) they have all already resolved and entered the scene, and both Onbeys have gotten Shy. The Onbeys can each only get 1 copy of Shy, but once their skills resolve and make them Shy, they should be able to use each other as a source to get Shy just as easily as they can use Hadi. So I think that even after Hadi is gone, they should be able to maintain each other's Shy status.

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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Taz » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:39 am

polkakitty wrote:The infinite loop of Kinks still really worries me, though, because it seems like something that could completely break the game if other cards interact with it, or when trying to implement Onbey in Furoticon Online. I mean, the way I'm reading it, [card]Self-Study Session[/card] could deal an infinite amount of pleasure to two Onbeys copying Kinks from each other. Imagine if there was a card like [card]Facial Battalion[/card], only it dealt pleasure in proportion to the number of skills a Furre had instead of its PEs....
Self-Study Session is a really cool card, and one of my favorites in its gender combination. That being said, don't count on seeing very many more skill-counting mechanics in the future--especially a repeatable or a proactive one, and certainly not both like you proposed. It's kind of really powerful and sorta confusing to new players. :) (Note that it got replaced with the plainer [card]Draconic Thrust[/card] in DAA . . .)
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Asapfgd » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:36 am

Thanks for your help everyone! It seems obvious now that it has been spelled out for me. :)

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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Seppel » Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:50 pm

I was trying to find this in the Rules Wiki, but... it wasn't explicitly stated! This has come up from the days of [card]Junkyard Rottweiler[/card] from 1st edition. :)

http://wiki.furoticon.com/wiki/Governin ... uplication
"Sometimes, an object in the scene will gain skills from other objects or skills. It may seem possible for certain cards to create a sort of "infinite loop" of skill gaining. However, objects cannot gain instances of skills that they have already gained."

So, two Onbeys won't feed off each other. They'll just gain the one copy from the original source, just like good ol' Rotty. :)
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by polkakitty » Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:01 pm

That's a good solution, but since we also have a few cards like [card]First Consort Pen Jiri[/card], who can give *hirself* multiple identical copies of Determined, and in fact that's the entire point of hir skill, I think it might be good for the wiki to clarify that this is specifically talking about situations where the same skill could be copied from multiple sources, not all possible methods of getting more than one copy of the same skill. So maybe it could say something like "objects cannot gain more than one instance of the same skill from other objects".

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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Astrid Varelse » Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:10 pm

Could always add a keyword which does: "Other objects cannot gain skills from this object" -- This would allow Furres such as Inquisitor Thexa to still remove the skill(s), but not gain them.

Regardless... Because of how Onbey is worded, Onbey will never make an infinite loop with skills because it says "While another Furre in the scene is a Renegade, etc..." (It does not say "For each Furre in the scene that is Renegade... etc) -- This means if you have one Tantric Furre in the scene, and two Onbeys, both Onbeys are only Tantric once. The only benefit having two Onbeys in the scene gives you, is that if the original Tantric Furre orgasms, both Onbeys would continue to possess Tantric from each other.

Personally I think it would be cool for Onbeys to get skills from one another! And it's easily disrupted by removing one of their skills, or removing one of them from the scene temporarily. -- The kink loop was definitely an issue, but I think they should be able to get skills from one another. -- Ofcourse I don't get to make any decisions around here, but I hope my opinion means something.

-- Also an alternate solution for the kink issue. "While Onbey is in your hand, Onbey has all Kinks of all Furres in the scene.", after all, kinks only really matter when they're in your hand.
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Re: Questions on the card Onbey (96 of rail heist) and more

Post by Seppel » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:57 pm

polkakitty wrote:That's a good solution, but since we also have a few cards like [card]First Consort Pen Jiri[/card], who can give *hirself* multiple identical copies of Determined, and in fact that's the entire point of hir skill, I think it might be good for the wiki to clarify that this is specifically talking about situations where the same skill could be copied from multiple sources, not all possible methods of getting more than one copy of the same skill. So maybe it could say something like "objects cannot gain more than one instance of the same skill from other objects".
Pen Jiri would be creating "Determined A", "Determined B", "Determined C", etc. on hirself. Shi creates separate instances. :)
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